Map mod quantity bonuses need reevaluation + synergy



I feel many of these mods do not accurately represent the difficulty (which of course is dependent on build so we're taking an average here). Fleet is pretty close to blood magic in terms of quantity for example while I can run fleet on pretty much any character without a significant difficulty spike and blood magic... not so much.

Additionally, I feel like there should be synergy bonuses. Fleet + temp chains gives only 50% quantity but the combination of these mods should give an extra quantity bonus. Another good example is blood magic + no regen, obviously these mods are harder when you combine these two so there should be a quantity bonus when these two mods spawn together. -max resist + monsters deal bonus fire/light/cold damage also shoots to mind.

This would make map rolling much more fun and interactive and would make the quantity level be more representative of the difficulty.

Additionally, there is a pretty good post about maps made on reddit (not by me), you can read it here:

Spoiler
With the ease of sustaining a map pool compared to how it was months/years ago, I've noticed a few things about its effects on the build meta. There are other factors affecting the build meta as well, but I haven't seen many people talk about how the map rolling meta affects it.

I have to mention, though, that I don't really have much experience in the highest level maps, and even though I've done a fair bit of research into rolling them properly, I'm not an expert on the topic.

Anyway, the shift in map meta that I'm talking about is that, since it's comparatively quite easy to sustain a map pool now, people Alch and Chaos maps much less, not to mention Exalting maps. These days, it's more common to Alt spam even the higher level maps, and then Regal good ones. Furthermore, people sometimes run even white maps these days.

With the meta shift to Alting maps instead of Chaos spamming them, players have a lot more control over what mods they run, and blue maps have fewer mods as well. And, since it's easier to sustain a map pool now, map %quantity is a bit less important as well. These 2 factors mean that people choose to run more difficult mods (like -max res, no regen, increased monster damage, and blood magic) a lot less frequently. Back when players mostly Chaos spammed high level maps, if the map got pack size, or maze/area size and some other good mods, it was more common that players would run the map that way, even if it had a dangerous mod or two, because the %quantity and good mods were essential to sustaining their map pool.

Of course, people do still run rare maps, and people still sometimes run maps with the really dangerous mods, but it's less common and less important to be able to run those mods now.

I remember back in the days of Open Beta especially, it was more common that build guides had sections on what map mods the build had trouble with, and the ability to run any map mod used to be a bigger selling point for a build.

I feel that, because being able to run most/any map mods is less important now, builds can be a little bit more finicky, and even a bit less versatile. For example, if a build has just barely enough mana regen to sustain its main skill, that's less of a problem than it might have been before. The player can just Alt past half/no regen. Sure, that player might lose out on a bit of potential %quantity, but it likely won't make as big of a difference on potential map drops as it could have a while ago. Similarly, an aura-dependant build that runs its auras on mana could just Alt past Blood Magic mods, instead of potentially having to Chaos a map with, say, high % increased pack size and % increased magic monsters. Again, not being able to do a nice map like that might hurt, but it's less of a potential map drop loss than it could have been earlier. Furthermore, if a player rolls a map with a mod they can't run, they usually only have to spend Alts instead of Chaos to reroll the map.

My point is that having a more finicky, less versatile build doesn't harm one's ability to sustain their map pool as much as it did earlier. So, these more fine-tuned, finicky builds have an easier time sustaining a map pool and playing the endgame now, and it's less important to create a build that can run almost any map mod. Essentially, I think the ease of sustaining a map pool has increased the endgame viability of certain builds.

Super simplified TL;DR: The shift to Alt/Regaling high level maps instead of Chaos spamming them has made it easier for more finicky, fine-tuned builds to sustain a map pool, and it's less of a detriment to sustaining a map pool when builds can't run certain map mods.

Again, these are just my opinions and I'm not an authority on rolling and running the highest level maps, but I feel that my point is backed up by some evidence, and I'd like to have a discussion about it.

Does anyone agree or disagree? What are your thoughts on the matter?

link
Beyond league.
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Remove them all but magic, packsize, rares, exiles and double bosses.

Quantity is a trap
sexy,

you make some sexy points, and the inclusion of the reddit thread
is good background as well.

the idea of synergy is crucial. ggg needs to spend a few hours in a jam
session running ideas about which mods would be synergized and by how much.

the blood magic and zero regen combo is an extremely obvious one,
deserved of a healthy synergy bonus but for the more subtler combos
would be changed less or unchanged.

there will be balance implications which could nerf/buff certain builds
in maps. for ex of blood magic with zero regen was a HUGE quantity giver
some builds could never possibly use it, while others alt/aug until they
get that specific combo then easily cash in.

this suggestion absolutely needs to happen, it has to be planned and
jammed out and audited frequently. ggg has a lot on their plate, and this
is more work but it should be scheduled in cause its good for the game.
Synergies sound like they are intended to level out the difficulty with quantity modifier. If successful, I don't see how that would make re-rolling maps more interesting! To the contrary it would make re-rolling maps less useful. Whatever mods the map ends up with, the quantity is appropriate for the difficulty so there's no need to fiddle with it anymore. The only reason would be if you actually cannot do the map.
I love that idea. Some combinations are hard enough (in high lvl maps, as well as lower lvls with undergeared characters) that it's not worth risking dying for a little +% quantity. Yeah some builds can ez-mode them anyways, but I agree that with this feature, rolling maps would be a lot more fun. Few of those come to mind:
- -max res + added % ele dmg
- phys reflect + vulnerability
- ele reflect + ele weakness
- armoured + ele equilibrium
for rare maps:
- dmg + added % ele dmg
- vulnerability + desecrated ground
- temporal chains + chilled ground

I also think that some mods give ridiculously low quantity for what they do, especially: curse immunity (18%), power/frenzy charges (15%) and the worst of them all... +added % elemental dmg (freaking 12% where X ground is 11%).
I would like this post to get more comments, and to stay on the page
for a while.

if GGG is nervous about doing MORE balance work when they already
have a backlog of it, then they should approach this more casually
and apply small synergies for the most obvious mods like elemental
weak + elemental damage.

like if elemental weak + elemental damage per hit had an added 5-10%
synergy bonus, that would not get out of hand... 25% would be a balance issue.

start small ggg, but start. buff them again later if you want.
up
Beyond league.
Map crafting in general needs a bit of a rework now that FM has been released. There's literally no reason to do anything but alt for pack size/magic monsters/rare monsters and then regal. Onslaught if you need extra IIQ for sustaining high level maps.

The risk reward to alch/chaosing maps just isn't there. There is no incentive to run difficult 120%+ IIQ maps over faceroll 60% IIQ maps with a pack mod roll.
The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard
The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard
Last edited by tackle70 on Oct 10, 2014, 1:20:22 AM
Bumping old thread because i was about to create a new one.
This topic needs some attention

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