Forsaken Craft: You've sort of broken your game GGG

OP, i'd say that Forsaken crafting has highlighted how bad the previous system was, rather than causing it.
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
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mark1030 wrote:
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.


Mastercrafts basically shift the average player's power upwards tremendously causing items that were once mid-high tier to be worth much less and I expect to see huge buffs on monster damage and defenses in the next major patch to compensate.

The game was balanced against horrible drop rates and a non existent and cruel crafting system.
IGN: Arlianth
Check out my LA build: 1782214
Last edited by Nephalim on Sep 19, 2014, 9:25:12 PM
Jesus, I was saying if people feel like they need these weapons to have fun, it doesn't matter to me if they have access to items near their power. I had fun before, I had fun after obtaining it. I would like the most people to have the most fun. I'm the kind of person that doesn't keep score in basketball. Fuck these forums.
Last edited by Ivanovichy on Sep 19, 2014, 9:26:57 PM
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Nephalim wrote:
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mark1030 wrote:
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.


Mastercrafts basically shift the average player's power upwards tremendously causing items that were once mid-high tier to be worth much less and I expect to see huge buffs on monster damage and defenses in the next major patch to compensate.

The game was balanced against horrible drop rates and a non existent and cruel crafting system.
The economy shifted. I didn't dispute that. Stuff that sells now is different than stuff that sold before. That happens to every economy in existence. Otherwise the economy would be stagnent. My dispute was that the assertion that the economy was obliterated.

Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
Last edited by mark1030 on Sep 19, 2014, 9:32:00 PM
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mark1030 wrote:
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Nephalim wrote:
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mark1030 wrote:
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.


Mastercrafts basically shift the average player's power upwards tremendously causing items that were once mid-high tier to be worth much less and I expect to see huge buffs on monster damage and defenses in the next major patch to compensate.

The game was balanced against horrible drop rates and a non existent and cruel crafting system.
The economy shifted. I didn't dispute that. Stuff that sells now is different than stuff that sold before. That happens to every economy in existence. Otherwise the economy would be stagnent. My dispute was that the assertion that the economy was obliterated.



The economy in any given league is obliterated within 5-15 days of creation due to rmt/botting. In fact, I would wager every new league start is a huge boon for rmt sites as players are willing to shell out money to get ahead in the new league.

Mastercrafts actually might make rmt a bit less rampant because players can get high tier gear without no life-ing or cheating.
IGN: Arlianth
Check out my LA build: 1782214
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OP, i'd say that Forsaken crafting has highlighted how bad the previous system was, rather than causing it.



I feel like this comment isnt really for this thread, youre not really understanding my initial post which has nothing to do with fm crafting in general but rather 1 specific mod and the way in which grinding xp on masters through dailies is massively benefiting the sort of people who didnt need any sort of buff to their item game while not doing a great deal for those who really needed the buff.


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mark1030 wrote:
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.


I completely disagree, things are not worth a fraction of what they were before and far less stuff is moving. I think the reason prices are lower is because far less orbs are changing hands in general so its harder for any one person to stack up enough to pay old prices, people are just self finding now and using their orbs to upgrade their own shit, which is fine. But prices across the board are down, big time, thats not an opinion thats a reality.



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Ivanovichy wrote:
Jesus, I was saying if people feel like they need these weapons to have fun, it doesn't matter to me if they have access to items near their power. I had fun before, I had fun after obtaining it. I would like the most people to have the most fun. I'm the kind of person that doesn't keep score in basketball. Fuck these forums.



you are in my feedback thread to GGG, thanks for your contribution Im glad you got it off your chest.



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Nephalim wrote:
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mark1030 wrote:
How exactly did master crafting "obliterate" the economy? I've found the opposite. Stuff that has a couple good rolls and room for master crafted mods sells now. It never did in Ambush. The stuff that doesn't sell (or sells for less) is the stuff that you can't improve. The only part of the economy that I see took a hit is the sellers of former BiS that now have competition from other sources.


Mastercrafts basically shift the average player's power upwards tremendously causing items that were once mid-high tier to be worth much less and I expect to see huge buffs on monster damage and defenses in the next major patch to compensate.

The game was balanced against horrible drop rates and a non existent and cruel crafting system.



exactly, the game is not balanced around these sort of items even existing, thats what people dont seem to be able to understand. If they now buff the game to compensate for people having easy access to items that are completely unbalanced, where does that leave looting? You are still looting stuff that was balanced against monsters that had half the life and half the damage of the new ones, where does this end? Do they then buff loot? Where does that leave the carrot? Does this become like diablo 3 where there is no potential to find amazing, overkill items? Is that the future of PoE? Becoming a shit game for casual children? I seriously hope not.

Or maybe, you know, just fix this absolutely broken crafting mod they have added before they have to redesign the entire game to compensate for its existence.
Although a casual child such as myself will never use that crazy OP master mod, I still don't think it was the greatest idea.

Either way, this thread took the wrong turn to elitist-ville, imo.

At the end of the day, who cares who has what in a PvM game.
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
Ok first let me say thanks IlyaK, I appreciate your post is actually trying to discuss things rather than just saying "oh you are a trader trying to protect his wealth gtfo", I dunno if Im gonna disagre with some things uve said or whatever here but thanks for actually talking sense and being reasonable.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:


As someone who put down his tornado shot ranger after playing for a week and getting absolutely steamrolled by the Jungle Valley boss, let me tell you:

Yes, I do want a Dragon Hunger.



well Ive beat jungle valley boss a number of times with that tornado shot ranger setup I posted, even with double reflect. Just stick a life on hit gem in there and stay away from the big guy, abuse the trees in the corner etc. If you are not using a coil with an ondars evasion acrobatics spec, thats maybe where youve gone wrong.

Second, jungle valley with a binos is a joke, I can link you builds I have to absolutely obliterate jungle valley with a binos level dagger, you can just hammer that map with a 70-200 phys 1.4aps dagger no problem, doesnt even have to be a dagger, any 1 handed double strike build doing in the range of 16-20k dps. You dont need a hunger for it trust me, thats so overkill, like using a sledge hammer to open a monkey nut.






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IlyaK1986 wrote:


The issue isn't so much the dragon hunger, so much as getting to it (or something within spitting distance, such as a multimod crafted item built on top of a tyrannical or flaring prefix), as the fact that getting to that point in and of itself is a slog. However, there are people that are offering master crafting services, so as to circumvent GGG's forced grinding nonsense. Some charge a moderate fee, some give it away.

....

See, the problem isn't the master crafting abilities so much as the forced grind to get to those levels. Because when you say "you'll quit within 5 minutes of getting your Dragon Hunger", well, guess what? I quit long before that, because of all the forced grinding the game makes one do.



see, forced grinding... by grinding you mean playing the game, that is basically the game right? Grinding, thats the entire thing, if you dont want to grind why are you playing the game? What will you do when you get a dragon hunger? Grind with it? If not grind with it then what would you do exactly seeing as that is all there is to do in the game? The journey is the game, the destination is the end of the game, surely we are here for the journey? do you read the last page of a book first then throw it out?

Forced grinding, well, youre not forced, but if you want the absolute best items in the game you have to play the game to get them, the minute you got them theres nothing left to play for, to grind for, thats sort of my point. These items only exist as a carrot, the Binos level of dagger destroys the entire game, ubers and all, the only reason the potential for stuff above that exists is for a carrot to keep grinding, to give you something left to play for. you dont want to ever get that last thing, then the game is over. I dont see it as forced grinding nonsense, if you dont have to grind for something then what? I dont get it, have dragon hunger as a quest reward maybe for killing the bear in act2 merciless? No ones forcing you to pursue a weapon like that, you certainly dont need one to achieve anything in the game outside of having a thing for the sake of having it.


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IlyaK1986 wrote:


At the end of the day, developers should be honest with themselves--if they only have 50 hours of content in the game, then they only have 50 hours worth of content. Why force a grind on so many people, to turn what should be a fun ten hour experience into a two hundred hour slog?



because its fun? Why make a game where you cna have everything in 50 hours? Thats what diablo did and its a piece of shit. Ive played this game for what? 5000 hours? More? Im still having fun, whats the point in taking a game that can be played for that long and cutting it down to 50 just because some people cant get their head around the idea that if theres still something in the game you dont have after 5000 hours then you wont get it after 50? Why should u have everything? What do you want it for?

Theres nothing stopping you playing for 10 hours and saying ok im done. But for those of us that want to play for 10,000 hours there has to be something in the game that you cant get in 10 hours, as soon as they add that for us the 10 hour crew say "hey man thats bs, I want everything in the game in 10 hours wtf?!?!?!" thats so selfish and unrealistic, they made the 10 hour game for those people, why arnt they happy with it? Why do they have to have the 10,000 hour reward in the 10 hours? They got their game now they want to fuck our game for what? sheer ego greed? Thats bs man, allow the game to have longevity for those of us who want it, keep those egos in check and learn to live with it. I understand thats not what you were saying, Im not directing that comment at you, youre talking more abstract and what ifs, Im just directing that at the theoretical guy who wants it all in 10 hours, no offense meant.



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IlyaK1986 wrote:


Furthermore, if you're steamrolling everything with a Dragon Hunger, how about replacing some of that gear with gear with some IIR on it, and some of those skill gems as well? If you're steamrolling everything, why is it that you only have 5 orbs worth of currency, instead of re-gearing the character to overkill things a little less? Also, how the heck are you dealing with reflect? Don't you just one-shot yourself?



what am I going to find? another dragon hunger? what is going to drop that has any value to me in standard league? I have mf characters there, not that its much use. The chances of something dropping that would be an upgrade for me are close to infinitely small. That was my point earlier about farming normal piety, the sort of loot that drops in normal mode compared to a level 80 char with 20kdps is roughly as useless as the sort of loot that drops in lvl78 maps when you are wearing items like hunger with bis 6 link chests etc. Thats why I went self found in beyond, to actually find something worth something to me again.


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IlyaK1986 wrote:


Oh, and one other thing--a 6L 200 DPS Harbinger in five days?

HOW?



playing the game? Day 2 I had a 5 link ivory bow, started mapping, found the rats nest, found a rise of the phoenix i traded for a coil which I then 5 linked, day 3 i found a chin sol, 5 linked it, next day found that harbinger, took another day to 6 link it and get that crafted mod, found another coil, gave it to my guild leader in the end, I think I have a 3rd in my stash atm but the rolls are shit compared to the one Im using. Its just grinding mate, going at it 12+ hours a day non stop, thats what it says on the tin right? Grinding gears? thats what we do man. The random 6 linking was luck, the rest of it was just normal run of things, I dont feel like I was particularly lucky in that first week outside of the full link, I didnt find a single exalt or divine or any currency worth a damn. I think I found an eternal in the second week, only second one Ive ever found in many, many 1000s of hours play, I guess that was unusual but tbh seemed like any other random weeks grinding for the most. The new master crafting made it uneccesary to really trade for any rare gear, I did trade of course, but only because I could, not out of need, just sheer gluttony for a ring with no useless stats, some boots with an extra 5% move speed and 5% all resist etc. Just show gear greed for the sake of it, because I could. Same reason I got the hunger, no one needs that dagger, theres nothing in the game that justifies the existence of such a weapon. Its like living in a city like london or new york and you buy a 5 million dollar sports car that can go over 200 mph despite never driving it on a street thats limit goes over 50. You made the money so why not waste it on something obscene?




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Mannoth wrote:
So within 5 DAYS of rampage you got a:

270 pdps 6L Harbinger
3x 20q gems
5L coil
Rats Nest

Unless you went no-life, flipped items or got extremely lucky it's unlikely.

You are suposed to melt stuff when you have a 6L like that lol.
I melt 78 maps on my facebreaker with an investment of 5-8ex that is not the point, i even removed Melee Splash from it because the ignite from herald of ash is enough.

A 6xT1 harbinger is DOUBLE your bow dps, so what is the problem here?
You want to say reaching HALF of the possible maximum is still broken?

Game isn't designed around 6xT1 weapons obviously, but that doesn't mean it's broken.
Every build is pretty much one shotting lower content after a point.



I didnt get the gems 20q in the first week, they leveled up and I flipped them with a gcp at some point.


Half the possible dps is verging on broken yes, at that point you can rape the entire game with sickening ease. Thats fine, because half the dps was previous almost impossible to find, ever, I made a massive post a while back about this, how a binos is like half the possible dps yet it annihilates the entire game. However you are like 20x as likely to find a binos than you are to find a rare dagger than even comes close to a binos, how bullshit that was and how we needed something like crafting to step in and make weapons that approach half the possible dps somewhat available to casuals, because they virtually never drop.

Thanks to the new crafting half the dps type weapons are now actually easy to find, that bow would ave been vendor food before, now I can make it into a sick endgame weapon that beats every map in the game like taking candy from a child. Is that broken? Well its a little too easy imo, but I was one of the people who argued for it and imo the game is more healthy with it than without. Fair play. Whats not ok is making a weapon thats like 90% of the possible dps from alts and regals, thats broken beyond broken.

Some things potentially exist in this game that are ridiculously broken, their potential is only there to give the game fun. What I mean by that is there is always the possiblity to find something absolutely ridiculous, this isnt some diablo 3 game where nothing is that bad and nothing is that great and its all really limited and lame, theres potential for massively insane items to randomly pop up in your loot. But theyre not meant to exist in any quantity, theyre not meant to be there for everyone to have one, its just there as a potential so that you know when you go out grinding theres the opportunity for this one in 100,000,000,000,000 drop that no matter what you own is going to be leagues beyond it..., unless you own mirror worthy gear or close to it already, at which point that potential is gone, that reason to keep going is gone. Trust me guys, dont go there, play the game, enjoy, enjoy that theres always upgrades and you will never own those 6xT1 stat items, thats the fun zone where the magic is still in the air. The less work or randomness involved in getting a thing, the less sweet it tastes, allow the game to taste so sweet, enjoy that juicy rng, enjoy playing a challenging game that pushes you as an individual, enjoy the grind. If you eventually get there, 'complete' the characters, you know whats next? Rerolling in a fresh league and doing it all over again, because that char you were building all this time is finished and theres nothing in the game that can justify using such a character against, thats why finding gear like that, up to now, has been a virtual impossibility, and it should stay that way.


I definitely see what you're saying -- basically, it amounts to: why do you want to devour the entire cake in a flash, instead of enjoy it little by little?

I suppose it's because I grew up with JRPGs such as Seiken Densetsu 3, FFVII, and others, where you played 40 hours, you beat the final story boss. You played 80 hours? You beat all the bonus bosses. The point of obtaining a weapon that's within spitting distance of Dragon Hunger is to just explore the content.

But I suppose at the end of the day, I feel that there's no way of making a sustainable PvE environment--after all, whether through grind or mechanical puzzle-solving, a game with static instances and simplistic gameplay will only last so long.

The thing I have never ever seen (and this will probably not come from GGG) is an ARPG balanced around not PvE, but PvP instead. I know it's difficult given the absolutely insane differences in weapon power, but so far, that's the only way I've seen games sustain themselves for thousands of hours--constantly testing yourself against people that improve with you.

I definitely sympathize with your notion of "what's left to do when you beat the game?", but is the alternative truly to simply stretch out the same experience (mapping) long after it's lost its novelty? I just don't feel that the grind is worth it, as basically, the vast majority of items already suck.

From what I hear of D3 (don't intend to play it), it sounds like a hollowed out inadequate successor to its predecessor, similarly to how SC2 just doesn't have as good an experience as the original SC did (the music's far worse, the story is far worse, all of a handful of custom games got played, and not even the best ones), but at times, it feels like PoE still isn't even where Diablo 2 was--no set items, no low to mid-range runewords (or their equivalents), and the crafting IMO is still poorly implemented--still either useless or out of reach re: meta-mods, at which point it's about crafting obscenely powerful gear to faceroll all content (reflect? How to counter >.<).

So you definitely do have a point...it's just at times, after getting steamrolled by some of the content and seeing the life globe just disappear, sometimes, I just want to say "I want to craft this GG gear, plow through the gearchecks, and show that freaking jungle spider boss".

I mean heck, run every map once, clear alluring abyss, get a few toons to that point, do some racing--there are certainly hundreds of hours of fun in PoE. I just don't think it's possible to appease the crowd who wants to slowly enjoy this game for thousands of hours, and at the same time, appease the crowd that thinks that gear should take a back seat to better decision-making, skill gem setup customization, and so on.
Meh, I disagree.

Searching for better loot is not the only reason to play the game. You have build diversity (this time improved, or that I heard) and bosses that can and will destroy you (even if a level 78 map can't).

Maybe the meta mod is excesive, but there are reasons to keep playing.

The best part of this is that even if the difficulty is increased, now we can work towards defeating all the content.

There are still a lot of uniques and builds to try, and now rares are less shitty and item prices are falling. I think this is a good time, :P
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942

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