Armor Mechanics Too Steep

"
LSN wrote:

Your issue is that you play one of the weakest kinds of builds in the game. Go for an es/dagger shadow and he will do all that what you think a melee/life guy should be capable of.


:)

Yeah, POE is not built for mitigation builds that use flasks for health. In other words, go leech or go home.
"
gh0un wrote:

What if i told you that you can reach 100k armor while being naked?
That would be a supertank specifically build to be a tank.
Getting 100k armor on a character that is NOT naked isnt too hard honestly.


Show me the math.


It comes down the fact that Armor should be the supreme physical damage mitigation, not life + Regen, not EV, not ES, not anything else. Life is a good all around damage sink and life builds should be able to handle both physical and elemental with equal measure. An armor, while having less HP to take elemental damage, should shine when facing the realm of physical damage.

Most builds online and most people suggest the life build Because it is better at handling harder (physical) hits as well as elemental hits, while also out regening damage and allowing for you absorb leeched damage at a faster rate.

Until armor is rescaled to be more linear with damage, Armor will not even do it's single most important job well, mitigate physical damage, when it counts.
Here is the math for a naked 130k armor character.
Skillbuild:
Spoiler
https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgEAxtg9_FhjjM_2SF8_fLjxrOOfJy_vDryfe4whAp5XfuDkUXZ_tz7Grjwtd-OuPmeb2L3-CjWSpldN4_6P8kUxnjrhhO9hIeLqAdy-ingNqW618gUtYEt673Tth2qkGRjXHKdTpVuvGNt08SFgQKAppU4qSshuqsWKr2xM__Af-ehBh6IAqWgUTQSzAnFX4jKJ7DiQVaeEGjgabOQiKU_jajbpJKoWbxcv-tJV1mTngKQksIbRgscMfRB_xp7E9iftrKpyqYcZbBb8SykufNlN2IFvjHaePJ3EWPW3MUNjms9xTWaeGj4b-iXf



Grace level 20: 2016 evasion.
22% increased effect due to aura nodes: 2016 x 1.22 = 2459 evasion.
Buff effect on self = 21% thus we have 2459 x 1.21 = 2975 evasion.

The tree has 309% increased armor and 24% increased evasion, making for a total of 333% increased armor.
100% increased armor from a flask and also 100% increased evasion from yet amother flask, increasing the total to 533% increased armor (since iron reflexes converts evasion to armor, evasion increasing effects also count as armor increasing effects, but they stack additively not multiplicatively).
21% increased buff effect on yourself increases that to: 533% x 1.21 = 644% increased armor.
(there is a slight mistake here, corrected in the spoiler below).

3000 granite armor x 1.21 (buff effect on yourself): 3000 x 1.21 = 3630 armor.
3000 jade evasion x 1.21 = 3630 evasion.

2975 grace evasion + 3630 granite armor + 3630 jade armor = 10235 base armor.

10235 base armor increased by 644% increased armor: 10235 x 7.44 = 76148 armor

Level 20 determination: 51% more armor (more is a multiplicative multiplier to increased).
22% increased aura effect: 51% x 1.22 = 67% more armor.
21% increased effect of buffs on yourself: 67% x 1.21 = 81% more armor.

76148 armor x 1.81 = 137827 armor

Spoiler
Actually it should be slightly lower because the 3000 armor from the granite does not profit from the 100% increased evasion from the flask. (it does benefit from the 24% from the tree because that node specificially increases both evasion and armor). So instead of multiplying it with 7.44, we would have to multiply it with something close to 6.2. Here comes the math:)

433% increased armor (instead of 533%) x 1.21 buff effect: 523%
3630 granite armor x 6.23 = 22614 armor

3630 jade + 2975 grace = 6605 evasion

533% increased armor x 1.21 buff effect: 644%
6605 x 7.44 = 49141 evasion

22614 + 49141 = 71755 combined armor
71755 x 1.81 (determination) = 129876 armor

There we go, the correct math. Its still 130k armor on a naked character.



And there we go. A totally naked character with 130k armor.
That is a dedicated tank. Any armor on gear will easily push him to over 200k armor.
I know that this is possible because i have already done this.

My flameblaster wasnt built like this, since he needed some dmg nodes, which is why he only reached 100k armor with auras + gear combined.
His base armor (without granite and jade) was 36k. With both combined, he had 102k armor.




Last edited by gh0un on Sep 2, 2014, 10:02:53 PM
but not everyone wants to run grace+determination+IR. its a serious tradeoff between dps and armour. the amount of points that u need to fly all the way to IR is bad enough already.

"
Atomgun wrote:

:)

Yeah, POE is not built for mitigation builds that use flasks for health. In other words, go leech or go home.


what are trap builds
what are totem builds

and don't tell me those are weak, they are more than capable of doing endgame content
"
gh0un wrote:
Spoiler
Here is the math utilizing my old Hardcore marauder:
Spoiler
https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgEAxtg9_FhjjM_2SF8_fLjxrOOfJy_vDryfe4whAp5XfuDkUXZ_tz7Grjwtd-OuPmeb2L3-CjWSpldN4_6P8kUxnjrhhO9hIeLqAdy-ingNqW618gUtYEt673Tth2qkGRjXHKdTpVuvGNt08SFgQKAppU4q3Q38xUp9h3ZnoErIbqrFiq9sTP_wH_noQYeiAKloFE0EswJxV-Iyiew4kFWnhBo4GmzkIilP42o26SSqFm8XL_rSVdZk54CkJLCG0YLHDH0Qf8aexPYn7ayqcqmHGWwW_EspLnzZ



Grace level 20: 2016 evasion.
22% increased effect due to aura nodes: 2016 x 1.22 = 2459 evasion.
Buff effect on self = 21% thus we have 2459 x 1.21 = 2975 evasion.

The tree has 309% increased armor and 24% increased evasion, making for a total of 333% increased armor.
100% increased armor from a flask and also 100% increased evasion from yet amother flask, increasing the total to 533% increased armor (since iron reflexes converts evasion to armor, evasion increasing effects also count as armor increasing effects, but they stack additively not multiplicatively).
21% increased buff effect on yourself increases that to: 533% x 1.21 = 644% increased armor.

3000 granite armor x 1.21 (buff effect on yourself): 3000 x 1.21 = 3630 armor.
3000 jade evasion x 1.21 = 3630 evasion.

2975 grace evasion + 3630 granite armor + 3630 jade armor = 10235 base armor.

10235 base armor increased by 644% increased armor: 10235 x 7.44 = 76148 armor

Level 20 determination: 51% more armor (more is a multiplicative multiplier to increased).
22% increased aura effect: 51% x 1.22 = 67% more armor.
21% increased effect of buffs on yourself: 67% x 1.21 = 81% more armor.

76148 armor x 1.81 = 137827 armor

Spoiler
Actually it should be slightly lower because the 3000 armor from the granite does not profit from the 100% increased evasion from the flask. (it does benefit from the 24% from the tree because that node specificially increases both evasion and armor). So instead of multiplying it with 7.44, we would have to multiply it with something close to 6.2 (100% less due to the evasion not working on it, and we had also multiplied that 100% with 1.21 due to buff effect on yourself)



And there we go. A totally naked character with almost 140k armor.
That is a dedicated tank. Any armor on gear will easily push him to over 200k armor.
I know that this is possible because i have already done this.

My flameblaster wasnt built like this, since he needed some dmg nodes, which is why he only reached 100k armor with auras + gear combined.
His base armor (without granite and jade) was 36k. With both combined, he had 102k armor.



Math is a little bit off. Your +EV% does not boost your armour at all. Sorry

so having 100% inc evasion from a jade flask does not give you 200% inc armour when combined with granite.

What you should be calculating is the EV and the AR portions seperately, then adding them together at the end. The inc AR% and mult AR% apply to the EV and the AR, but the inc EV% only applies to the EV part.

Also does the buff effect on self really multiply the inc effect due to auras? I thought it was additive.

Also does the buff effect on yourself still effect flasks? I thought this was removed.
Last edited by Real_Wolf on Sep 2, 2014, 8:59:56 PM
Already pointed out the slight mistake.
The correct approach is in the spoiler of the math post.

The 100% increased evasion from jade applies to the grace evasion and the jadeflask evasion.
The 100% increased armor applies to the granite/grace/jade.

So the math is just slightly off.
Instead of adding 200% to the entire base armor from grace/jade/granite, we would add 100% to granite/jade/grace, and 200% to only jade/grace.

And yeah, buff effect and aura effect are multiplicative.
Its the same approach as with vulnerability vs increased physical damage from the tree.
While both state "increased physical damage", one of them applies to your damage, and the other applies to damage taken by the enemy, thus being multiplicative to each other.

Last edited by gh0un on Sep 2, 2014, 9:02:39 PM
"
gh0un wrote:
His base armor (without granite and jade) was 36k.


This is a character you said was not build to be a tank. Were you being dishonest or are you delusional?
"
a life flask that lasts long and grants 90-100% increased armor.


It's not really effective to use life/mana flask for this. As soon as you reach 100% life/mana the bonus to evasion/armor ends.
"
Jennik wrote:
"
gh0un wrote:
His base armor (without granite and jade) was 36k.


This is a character you said was not build to be a tank. Were you being dishonest or are you delusional?


The character i am talking about is the character in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqhzDDTHKs&list=UU2Q9tHoI_oDFGmCloW2gpkA

As you can see he deals quite a lot of damage, but he has quite some tankiness anyways.
In that video he had about 24k base armor and 70k granite/jade armor.
Later on i found better gear, increasing it to the values i mentioned above.
Last edited by gh0un on Sep 2, 2014, 9:27:45 PM
"
Yesu wrote:
"
a life flask that lasts long and grants 90-100% increased armor.


It's not really effective to use life/mana flask for this. As soon as you reach 100% life/mana the bonus to evasion/armor ends.


It is effective to use your main life flask for it. I have done so many times in the past.
The time when you need additional armor is exactly the moment when you take damage.
Having 20k-30k base armor prevents any 1 shots, but as soon as you start taking damage you will use that main life flask, so you will always have that additional bonus.
If you hit 100% life, you are safe from death anyways, so you dont need any additional armor.

Having it on a manaflask as a comparison, is not effective.
While you might already be taking damage, you might not be able to use the manaflask to gain that additional armor because you might still be at max mana or close to it, thus preventing you from gaining the increased armor effect.

Its effective only on that main life flask that you use after taking slight damage.
Last edited by gh0un on Sep 2, 2014, 9:20:53 PM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info