The trading cancer and hacking once again kills of this game for 30+ players

Uh, discussing balance is easy.

You just go "here is balance at 1.2.1" and later on you can go "here is balance at 1.3" etc.

The balance changes, yes. Just like what is viable

^ And you can say the same with mods.. here is the balance with this list of these mods with these versions, and that is the balance with that list of those mods with those versions. Same thing in the end...

^ a sandbox can be diverse, for sure, but there's not much to compare between what's built if the properties of the sandbox are mutable at a whim.

Modded TL is the opposite of build diversity, because the builds themselves are incomparable.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

^ a sandbox can be diverse, for sure, but there's not much to compare between what's built if the properties of the sandbox are mutable at a whim.

Modded TL is the opposite of build diversity, because the builds themselves are incomparable.

Actually they aren't, at least completely, and there was an interesting penny arcade video about the use of incomparables in design


Pretty much everything that can be boiled down to numbers is comparable, actual incomparable stuff is stuff that isn't able to be boiled down to pure numbers


This extra credit video about power creep talks about this concept of incomparables in a limited way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

The whole series is actually sort of interesting to watch anyway so I would recommend them to anyone bored anyway.

"

Jiero wrote:

^ Using a patched game that adds content like PoE does is no different then using a modded one except for who does the changes. One is done by a team of devs professionally and the other by random people and yourself. If you remove the mods in the comparison, then you have to remove the content patches.

that is completely and utterly unfair

mods arent the game content.
even though there might be mods for skyrim or neverwinter nights 2 that are better than the actual games, it doesnt actually make the og games any better. devs get a pat on the back for making sandbox available but THATS WHERE IT STOPS

some people cannot stand to play modded games, for that matter

Im not one of them, but I have no willingness to play modded TL2 to experience 'diversity'. I wanted to play TL2 when it came out, I did and I continued this summer, unmodded.

so, I stand by what I said, an unmodded TL2 by runic has far less build diversity than PoE, and its not even close. an open beta PoE build diversity >>>>> vanilla TL2s build diversity

I could give a rats ass what the modded content has. its not made by runic. comparing user-made content with dev-made content is not only silly but intellectually dishonest

its like comparing a basic stock toyota camry to a modded honda accord with custom exhaust, doors, etc.
just plain dumb, no offense

"

grepman wrote:

"

Jiero wrote:

^ Using a patched game that adds content like PoE does is no different then using a modded one except for who does the changes. One is done by a team of devs professionally and the other by random people and yourself. If you remove the mods in the comparison, then you have to remove the content patches.

that is completely and utterly unfair

mods arent the game content.
even though there might be mods for skyrim or neverwinter nights 2 that are better than the actual games, it doesnt actually make the og games any better. devs get a pat on the back for making sandbox available but THATS WHERE IT STOPS

some people cannot stand to play modded games, for that matter

Im not one of them, but I have no willingness to play modded TL2 to experience 'diversity'. I wanted to play TL2 when it came out, I did and I continued this summer, unmodded.

so, I stand by what I said, an unmodded TL2 by runic has far less build diversity than PoE, and its not even close. an open beta PoE build diversity >>>>> vanilla TL2s build diversity

I could give a rats ass what the modded content has. its not made by runic. comparing user-made content with dev-made content is not only silly but intellectually dishonest

its like comparing a basic stock toyota camry to a modded honda accord with custom exhaust, doors, etc.
just plain dumb, no offense

You should stop right now, "mods arent the game content.", they are if you put them in the game. stop trolling with your opinions lol. OPINIONS stay opinions, you CHOSE to play a game designed around the need for mods, You chose to not use mods, but mods ARE content...they are usually filled with bugfixes...the only difference is that you chose what patches to apply, and in poe you dont't chose anything you are force feed, some people enjoy some don't you clearly dont like the complexity and infinity that is mods, ( odd considering you play poe and what people love about poe is A LOT of diversity, its why it attracts a lot of solo/offline/mod type of selfound guys.)


Yes, Mods are the same as patches by definition they ARE patches a lot of the time, but you chose what ones to apply, that simple.

I guess you find mods maybe too complex? but try out medi xl...get you're mind blown, mods sure as hell can change a game...but they are just like patches poe offers...only you can chose what ones you enjoy playing with...no other explanation possible tbh, perhaps its just MY opinion.

What do you think dev's expect when they release a game WITH modding tools, that those tools are part of the engine of the game they sell and ment to be used to add to the experience that's the whole idea behind offline games... the mistake you are making is comparing online only with mods...only mistake here.


tldr

poe: offers 1 patch possibility, you cannot play without it.(competitive)
mods: offers you to patch how ever you wish to play it. ( 0-competition )

"

grepman wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

there's actually a lack of build diversity compared to D2, TL2, and other ARPGs.

I call major bullshit on this one.
unmodded vanilla TL2 doesnt have anything in build diversity over PoE. no-thing.

there are more builds of fire caster/trapper in PoE than there are total embermage builds in TL2. dead serious.

TL2 actually has pretty limited build diversity due to vast disbalance of skills.

for embermage basically its 1)prismatic mage 2)ice mage 3)staff mage. thats pretty much it.

add utility/defensive/stationary skills as spices, but these are meat and potatoes of embermage play in vanilla TL2.

most lightning skills besides prismatic bolt are meh and fire skills are even worse besides the defensive ones (which are required in hardcore due to ridiculous damage spikes on NG+)

Limited? Unless you're playing Elite mode on insane level maps, you can easily do all the content regardless of skills on an Ember Mage. Hell, even on 120 on elite you can still run a Fire Ember Mage and still be successful, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, especially when you can stack damage reduction out of the wazoo in TL2. That's just Elite difficulty, if we tone the difficulty down there are plenty of other builds that you can run that easily crush the game.

And even if we're talking strictly Elite mode HC, I'd wager there are at least 20+ builds (out of all the classes) capable of running Elite HC depending on how masochistic you are with your farming. Can you really say with a straight face there are 20+ truly different builds capable of doing Uber Aztiri/78 maps?

@Jiero: Allow me to clarify--the builds themselves are incomparable to any practical end.

Builds, specifically, are preemptive strategies to overcome difficulty and content expectations. Those expectations are mutable when employing mods; there is no practical reason to compare builds (as a player) subject to different rules. A structured environment where all rules are the same for all participants, is required for builds to exist.

So, no, modded TL2 does not have build diversity, it has diversity in player experience. These are not the same.

@allbusiness 78 maps, yes. Without a doubt. Uber atziri, no idea. Haven't fought her. Why you put the two as synonymous with each other I have no idea.

So why are third party mods lumped in as part of one game, but third party indexing tools for trading in this game not viewed with the same enthusiasm?