Why Self Found is Fine: 7 Days of Progress

progression isnt based around trading. If there are 2 different things that can drop, and you want one of them, its 50/50 youll get the one you want or the other one. If you get the other one, then its quicker to trade that for the one you want than keep farming till the one you want drops. Thats simple logic, thats always going to be the case. In this game theres millions of different things, the more complex the game the less likely ull get the exact one you wanted, and hence trade will always be a quicker way to the end goal unless the game gives you absolutely everything on a plate and you dont have to struggle to find a anything.

That doesnt make game progression about trading. This is why chris said trading should be as hard as possible, this is why trading is an absolute bitch in this game and it actually takes skill to be good at trade, to understand market prices, evaluate things, what is and isnt a good deal based on trends, availability etc.

That isnt balanced around trading, thats trading existing. If you want all the options someone who trades has but you want them given to you without having to take part in trade which ha been made intentionally hard then yes you want the game to be easier. Thats just how it is, thats logic, so enough with your crying and your "omg path of trading oh Im so hard done by" bullshit, grow up.


Farming is essential in this game, not that you would know ragnar as you have barely even played the game, highest level character 68, you dont even have a clue about the game and farming because you have never done it. Are you the same ragnar I see talking shit in peoples streams all day? Constantly bitching and moaning about the game? I hope not because if you are the ragnar from moses and fands streams then what a joke that you have barely even played the game yet you talk so much shit about it like you have the first clue about anything.

Sad truth is most of the people who cry about having to trade to progress do way less farming than those who actually do trade, and its the lack of farming thats the real reason you dont get anywhere. The trade thing is just the bullshit excuse people use to cover up their lack of effort and their want to have everything now without earning it. "oh its trade, thats the problem, noble me doesnt want to trade". No, your lack of grinding and game knowledge is your problem. People in this thread talking about grinding the game for ages and not finding anything, then you look at their character sheet and they have 1 character in the mid 80s... you fibber, you havent ground shit youve spent about 20 hours in endgame tops, thats why you have fuck all because you have spent fuck all time grinding, nothing to do with trading.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:


That doesnt make game progression about trading. This is why chris said trading should be as hard as possible, this is why trading is an absolute bitch in this game and it actually takes skill to be good at trade, to understand market prices, evaluate things, what is and isnt a good deal based on trends, availability etc.


Trading is easy as fuck, sorry to burst your bubble. Also poe.xyz. The only thing that requires "skill" in trading is flipping, and that's not to progress that's just to make more currency.


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Snorkle_uk wrote:

That isnt balanced around trading, thats trading existing. If you want all the options someone who trades has but you want them given to you without having to take part in trade which ha been made intentionally hard then yes you want the game to be easier. Thats just how it is, thats logic, so enough with your crying and your "omg path of trading oh Im so hard done by" bullshit, grow up.


Drop rates ARE balanced around trading. Stop talking shit.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Farming is essential in this game, not that you would know ragnar as you have barely even played the game, highest level character 68, you dont even have a clue about the game and farming because you have never done it. Are you the same ragnar I see talking shit in peoples streams all day? Constantly bitching and moaning about the game? I hope not because if you are the ragnar from moses and fands streams then what a joke that you have barely even played the game yet you talk so much shit about it like you have the first clue about anything.

Personal attacks because he doesn't agree with you? He wasn't even offensive in his post.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Sad truth is most of the people who cry about having to trade to progress do way less farming than those who actually do trade, and its the lack of farming thats the real reason you dont get anywhere. The trade thing is just the bullshit excuse people use to cover up their lack of effort and their want to have everything now without earning it. "oh its trade, thats the problem, noble me doesnt want to trade". No, your lack of grinding and game knowledge is your problem. People in this thread talking about grinding the game for ages and not finding anything, then you look at their character sheet and they have 1 character in the mid 80s... you fibber, you havent ground shit youve spent about 20 hours in endgame tops, thats why you have fuck all because you have spent fuck all time grinding, nothing to do with trading.


I agree with them that progressing past a certain point requires you to trade. Lack of common sense is your problem.
Also having these makes me right according to you, yeah?
ign: ecogen
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ecogen wrote:
etc etc



nice kaoms, you realise anuhart has 2 kaoms right? and a 6 link shavs? and 2 crown of eyes? He hasnt traded a single item or orb in his entire time playing. So trade is required? No, its not. I had a nice legacy kaoms like that, did I trade for it? No, I found it, because I actually grind the game. You have a lvl90 char, you have ground the game, thats why you have one too, either you found it or found something of equal value and traded for it. If you dont grind you dont find anything, and that locks you out of trade because you can only trade if you grind. A lot of people dont grind, hence cant trade, and then turn around and say "oh I dont want to trade thats why I never get anywhere" and im sorry but that is bullshit and it needs called out because these people rattle on all day like theres a problem with the game when thats absolutely not true, the problem is they dont grind, this is an arpg that is about grinding and game knowledge, if you dont grind you wont get anything, simple as that.



My comments to ragnar were only IF hes the same ragnar that is always talking shit about the game in people stream chats all day. If hes not the same ragnar, those comments dont apply to him at all and I have nothing against him. If it is the same ragnar then I wish I knew he had barely even played the game and has spent all of 5 minutes in endgame cause I would have called him out on his bullshit long ago. That ragnar does nothing but cry about how self found isnt viable and this and that is wrong with the game, if thats coming from someone who hasnt even reached lvl70 then its an absolute joke. How would he know anything about grinding vs trading when he hasnt even tried the former?



If trading is so easy then why are people so bad at it? Why dont they have well geared characters who can clear content? Why is every stream filled with price checks all day long? Trading in this game is an effort and requires game knowledge, it also requires you to grind the game hard to earn something to trade with, people dont want to do any of these things and would rather just cry about sfl all day like they have a point. Im sorry, but they dont.
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
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ecogen wrote:
etc etc



nice kaoms, you realise anuhart has 2 kaoms right? and a 6 link shavs? and 2 crown of eyes? He hasnt traded a single item or orb in his entire time playing. So trade is required? No, its not. I had a nice legacy kaoms like that, did I trade for it? No, I found it, because I actually grind the game. You have a lvl90 char, you have ground the game, thats why you have one too, either you found it or found something of equal value and traded for it. If you dont grind you dont find anything, and that locks you out of trade because you can only trade if you grind. A lot of people dont grind, hence cant trade, and then turn around and say "oh I dont want to trade thats why I never get anywhere" and im sorry but that is bullshit and it needs called out because these people rattle on all day like theres a problem with the game when thats absolutely not true, the problem is they dont grind, this is an arpg that is about grinding and game knowledge, if you dont grind you wont get anything, simple as that.



My comments to ragnar were only IF hes the same ragnar that is always talking shit about the game in people stream chats all day. If hes not the same ragnar, those comments dont apply to him at all and I have nothing against him. If it is the same ragnar then I wish I knew he had barely even played the game and has spent all of 5 minutes in endgame cause I would have called him out on his bullshit long ago. That ragnar does nothing but cry about how self found isnt viable and this and that is wrong with the game, if thats coming from someone who hasnt even reached lvl70 then its an absolute joke. How would he know anything about grinding vs trading when he hasnt even tried the former?



If trading is so easy then why are people so bad at it? Why dont they have well geared characters who can clear content? Why is every stream filled with price checks all day long? Trading in this game is an effort and requires game knowledge, it also requires you to grind the game hard to earn something to trade with, people dont want to do any of these things and would rather just cry about sfl all day like they have a point. Im sorry, but they dont.


I'll say it again trading is NOT hard in any form or shape. And even if it was it's not relevant to this discussion.
People want an SFL not because they find trading hard but because they don't want to use trading as a means of progression.
Also no-one said that playing SF isn't "viable", it's just that your progression is so underwhelming compared to what it would be if you traded that it's just frustrating to play SF unless you're looking at it as a "challenge".
In any case, my point is that an SF league with drops balanced around solo-play wouldn't bother anyone, and it would make a lot of people happy. So, why not?
ign: ecogen
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
..


I actually did not know that the post is aimed at me. First I am not that ragnar, as I do not use general chat nor do I have a ragnar named character, except RagnarTheBlack that riped back in open beta, and I did not recreate him or used him since than (I played him also in closed beta before the open beta, but still that was a loong time ago).

Now to your post about sfl and trading. This game as we all know and as GGG said is from ground up is designed around a working economy and trading. That means if devs want to make a trade centric game, they need to make drop rates balanced around it. The drop rates can not, and never will be balanced around the player, but around a economy (group of players). There is nothing to it. It simple as that.

Now saying that you need to grind to get items. That is correct, but there is a huge difference between farming 1h, 10h, 100h, 1000h, and as everything its about balance, about time you invest and reword you get for that time invested. Its also about difficulty and reward for beating that difficulty (related to map bosses, and skipping hard ones because low reword).

This game has very poorly done time invested and reword. Its actually the worst arpg in that regard compared to any other arpg I ever played and I played from d1, d2, d3, sacred 1, sacred 2, TQ, GD, TL1, TL2, and more crapy ones like LOKI and few others. All those game have drop rate balanced around the player him self. There is no balance around a economy. D3 tried it with AH, and guess what happened? They made drop rates low so the AH and economy can work. Until they later changed it and scraped it.

There is no problem that you like trading, but the thing is the progression in this game in last dif/maps is balanced around trading. Yes you need some knowledge to trade in this game (mostly becuse you need to know about orbs), but the main thing is a lot of people dont want that from a arpg game. A lot of people expect this game to be a arpg game more than a mmo/trading game, and that is the main reason for self found league and players. They want to kill shit and get shit. They do not want to spam the shit out of the trade chat or to use some outer programs, or at all, they just dont want to trade. They do not find anything fun in it.

And for them, the balance is off, because if you do not trade, the game was not balanced around that, so you will need to invest a lot more time in farming to get items you can use. That time that you need to invest and get that upgrade, is not good balanced, and it is done for a reason, because of the economy. The reason why skill are gems and how map works is also because of trading, as GGG said it back in their blog posts.

You may be ok to invest so much more time in something without a reword, but a lot of people are not ok with that, or you may also like to trade, more power to you, but as this game has a different league options, there is a possibility for GGG to implement a part of the game for people that anyway don't participate in the economy or are forced to do it because the balance is off, even if they dont like it (like me), so they can have more fun from the game without harming the other player base that has fun in trading.

I need to remind you that this is just a game, and different people have more fun with different things. The best thing a game can offer are options, so everyone can enjoy it, and as there is a huge part of player base that does not enjoy trading and balannced drops around it, and GGG has means to change it relatively easy, I do not see a reason why they should not do it. Saying self found in this game is ok is lying to your self, or you actually lack experience with other arpg games, and their drop rates time invested/reword
Last edited by Ragnar119 on Sep 1, 2014, 7:41:16 PM
The ragnar I was talking about is an slf waffler that frequents twitch stream chats talking all sorts of nonsense on a daily basis, if thats not you, then none of what I said there was aimed at you.



I dont enjoy trading, at all, I hate the actual act of trading, but I love the scope it brings to the game. You cant have this amount of depth and customization and still have everything for any build you chose available to you by lvl70 AND have any sort of challenge/longevity in the game.



I hear what you say, and almost everything you say is true, Im not trying to take that away from you or say you are completely wrong. The game IS designed with trade in mind, of course. But consider this, solo self found good players are getting higher level characters than your highest current char in under 10 hours, what do you expect to have at your stage of playing? Because whatever it is, you are asking for someone whos actually taken the time to learn the game more completely to have that in under 10 hours from nothing, from a blank start on a blank server solo self found. Think about that, how trivial a game would that be? Dont you think maybe what you should be doing is figuring out how they are doing it rather than calling for a trivial version of the game? Isnt that the challenge of the game, figuring it out?

They aim to make a game that works if you trade or if you play solo self found, and they have done that. If you are not able to do it then theres something you are doing wrong, a game isnt about catering to players who havent learnt to play it, its about the players taking responsibility for learning how to play the game.


Anyone can log on to xyz, search a ring for 1 chaos and then go buy it, thats simple as it comes. What isnt simple is maintaining a shop with 100s of items, being able to know the market value of those items, the market value of what people are offering you, how these values will change over time etc. If you dont want to do that then fine, no problem, play solo self found, thats legit. You dont HAVE to trade, I leveled into the 70s solo self found from nothing in rampage, took me 2 days, and Im not even a good player, Im so far from the top players in this game Im nothing more than an insect crawling around in the dirt. You think Im a better gamer than you? Im not, at least I highly doubt it, if theres a difference its that I know some things about this game you dont know.


I dont think the balance is off, I think this game is complex on a level where people dont even relaise just how far wrong they are going with their builds and the way they play the game, then they blame it on drops. Game is balanced around trade so bang, there it is, I dont want to trade and thats the porblem. No, Im sorry its not, Ive traded for gear now in ambush, but theres nothing I can do now I couldnt have done with my self found gears. Theres nothing wrong with self found drop rates, what is wrong is peoples bad builds that cant clear content at a decent pace and require good gear to make up for all the things they are doing wrong. But people dont want to hear that, you say it and people get defenswive, omg hes calling me a bad player... well, maybe but listen to what Im saying, look at the evidence of players in new leagues going self found on the first day and hitting maps, Im not talking shit here, Im not trying to bash people, Im trying to wake you people up to the reality of the game. Its not a game where gear wins it for you, its a game where knowledge wins it.


GGG upped drop rates, then upped them again, buffed the shit out of maps, introduced strong boxes, introduced this new crating that is absurdly, almost game breakingly op and still the calls for sfl continue. Why? Because the problem isnt gear/drops, the problem is players who dont understand what they are doing and how to make the most of what they find and just have this head in the sand, sfl or gtfo mantra going on.


If someone is killing more mobs per day than you are killing per week then what do you think that is doing for their drop rates vs your drop rates? Think about it. Are drop rates the problem? Dont you have control of your own drop rates? Doesnt your kill rate = your drop rate? I always here this "I dont want to trade, it should be about killing mobs", but all the people ahead of you are killing more mobs than you, and thats why they are ahead, it has nothing to do with trade. Their ability to trade comes from them killing hoards of mobs. Ive been in the new leagues for what, 13 days now? I could have equipped about 6 or 7 characters who could beat lvl78 maps so far from my drops. Drops are not the problem, at all, players who have shut their minds off to the possibility that they are doing something wrong are the problem. Its all there man, its all there for the taking, but GGG are not going to hand it to you on a plate, its up to you to step up your game and take it. Thats the game, games require you to learn how to play them and then put it in practice, they dont make a version of football where the goal is 10x bigger for people who refuse to learn how to kick a ball. Theyre not making a trade or gtfo game, theyre making a game you have to learn, and if you are having a problem getting anywhere in this game its because you havent learned enough about the game, pure and simple. Sry if that doesnt sit well with peoples egos but its true and Im not going to lie or sit here and listen to nonsense and not say anything when I know that is the truth. Ive played this game for 1000s and 1000s of hours and I know that I could consistently equip an endgame viable character every 2 days from drops week after week after week, its nothing to do with luck or trade.


Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Sep 2, 2014, 2:10:42 AM
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
snip


Please, stop missing the point. No-one is saying that you can't beat the game as SF. There are literally dozens of builds that don't depend on gear. The point is you can't do everything that you could by trading in a REASONABLE amount of time.

I'll just repost something from an old discussion, again about SF.

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Jojas wrote:


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ecogen wrote:

No it is literally not optional, given that people don't have infinite time. I'll give you a simple example. With the current drop rates, craft 1 GG item for any slot and by GG I mean GG. It will take about 10 years of farming if we go with the average cost and with the average exa/et drop rates. And before people go all "LEL YOU WANT KAOMS RAINING FROM THE SKY" I'll say again: 10 years for 1 GG item.

Most players in PoE have unconsciously created a ceiling for solo play and don't even take into account other aspects in the game which have been labeled in their heads as achievable only by trade/rmt. That's why they have the balls to say "you can play SF just fine in the current leagues".



Ten years might seem like an exaggeration, but I think the number might even be too low. I have about 750 character levels on all my chars combined and, having run most of them with something between 30 and 100 IIQ managed to find 2-3 exalteds and 1 eternal. I don't know how many of them you need to create one GG weapon, but several thousand alterations and 200 exalteds and eternals each might be about right (with ~1% chance for a specific top-tier affix and - just - 4 desired affixes: IPD% (twice), added phys. damage, IAS).

That would mean my 750 character levels times 200, so 150.000 char levels or playing 2000 chars up to the level of 75. For one weapon with 4 top tier affixes. :D


Yup, not balanced around trading at all. Get a clue pls. And if you think that's "expecting too much from SF", read this again until it settles in
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ecogen wrote:
Most players in PoE have unconsciously created a ceiling for solo play and don't even take into account other aspects in the game which have been labeled in their heads as achievable only by trade/rmt. That's why they have the balls to say "you can play SF just fine in the current leagues".

ign: ecogen
With the 1.2.0 patch the self-found items are .. how to say .. better then before and you can farm good drops or just use what you found from random maps with good results ...
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ecogen wrote:
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
snip


Please, stop missing the point. No-one is saying that you can't beat the game as SF. There are literally dozens of builds that don't depend on gear. The point is you can't do everything that you could by trading in a REASONABLE amount of time.

I'll just repost something from an old discussion, again about SF.

"
Jojas wrote:


"
ecogen wrote:

No it is literally not optional, given that people don't have infinite time. I'll give you a simple example. With the current drop rates, craft 1 GG item for any slot and by GG I mean GG. It will take about 10 years of farming if we go with the average cost and with the average exa/et drop rates. And before people go all "LEL YOU WANT KAOMS RAINING FROM THE SKY" I'll say again: 10 years for 1 GG item.

Most players in PoE have unconsciously created a ceiling for solo play and don't even take into account other aspects in the game which have been labeled in their heads as achievable only by trade/rmt. That's why they have the balls to say "you can play SF just fine in the current leagues".



Ten years might seem like an exaggeration, but I think the number might even be too low. I have about 750 character levels on all my chars combined and, having run most of them with something between 30 and 100 IIQ managed to find 2-3 exalteds and 1 eternal. I don't know how many of them you need to create one GG weapon, but several thousand alterations and 200 exalteds and eternals each might be about right (with ~1% chance for a specific top-tier affix and - just - 4 desired affixes: IPD% (twice), added phys. damage, IAS).

That would mean my 750 character levels times 200, so 150.000 char levels or playing 2000 chars up to the level of 75. For one weapon with 4 top tier affixes. :D


Yup, not balanced around trading at all. Get a clue pls. And if you think that's "expecting too much from SF", read this again until it settles in
"
ecogen wrote:
Most players in PoE have unconsciously created a ceiling for solo play and don't even take into account other aspects in the game which have been labeled in their heads as achievable only by trade/rmt. That's why they have the balls to say "you can play SF just fine in the current leagues".








yeah but ur slightly deluded here in that 99.9999% of people who trade will never have a 4 top affix GG weapon either. They have the same chance in hell that a self found player has. Its not a ceiling for solo play, its a ceiling for virtually everyone regardless. That doesnt matter. Why? Because you dont even need a weapon that is half of a mirror worthy item to absolutely rape endgame, theyre just for show mate, show pony gear to give people who have gone beyond having everything they need so long ago something to still log in and play for.

This is part of the problem, people with their jelly. They see mirrored gear and think "I must have that". Cant you see that weapons with half their stats still destroy the entire game? If it were possible to find and craft that sort of gear a lot easier the game balance would have to be different, a weapon half as good would be piss easy to get, you couldnt have a piss easy weapon to get being able to overkill everything in the game. If the game was "balanced around solo play" the potential for the current state of mirrored gear would have to be removed and the same half as good weapons you have access to already would be as top as it goes, or the mobs rebalanced to expect you to have that gear n order to overkill destroy. The game isnt balanced around needing that gear, its impossible gear that has no real use in the game, its just there because... why not? Give people an endless goal, no matter how good the thing you found is, theres always the "potential" for something better. It just exists as a carrot too far to stop you ever running out of reasons to play. It wouldnt exist in a "balanced for casual solo self found play" game, so for you to say that you must have access to it solo self found is ridiculous and just completely missing the point of its existence and the need for gear like that. Its like saying you need a 5 million dollar bugatti sports car to drive your kids to school around the corner and pick up a pint of milk from the local shop, and the way society is structured is bullshit because you didnt go to a private school like Eaton means its impossible for you to ever afford a bugatti. You dont need one mate, you dont even need the luxury 100k mercadies you can work towards and achieve. Your stance is just completely delusional and completely misses the point of the game, the gear potential and what you really need.


People say sf is fine because every single day they find gear that could rape every level of maps with ease, they say it because its true. You are literally saying unless you can reasonably achieve current mirroed gear levels then sf is not fine, what an absolutely absurd comment. If you could get mirrored level gear within a reasonable time frame self found then the game would be over, there would be nothing left worth playing for. Be extremely thankful you are not playing some shallow bullshit game that does not have the capacity for infinite grinding, with this system there is always a better item, the only people who are truely fucked are the few 100 out of the many millions signed up to poe who actually do have virtually unlimited access to mirror level gear, theyre the only people who have nothing left to play for.



I have mirrored gear, I have mirror worthy gear, which is even better. Last chest armour I bought cost me 190 exalts. Do I need that gear? No, theres absolutely nothing I can do with that gear that I couldnt do with gear I have found myself, not a single thing. Why have it then? Because it gave me a reason to keep playing, just meaningless increases in numbers. Thing is, 190ex is a drop in the ocean, it got me 1 bit of gear out of 8+ fully geared endgame characters I have. I will never be able to afford that level of gear for every slot on every character despite my rampant trading. Thats fine, I dont need it, I dont even need gear half as good as the gear Ive already got, the fact that it exists gives me a reason to keep playing despite having 'beat' the game almost a year ago. Majority of people who trade will never even have the gear levels I already have, ever, its not solo self found that are locked out, almost everyone is locked out. Theres levels of gear Im locked out of, I get to have maybe 1 or 2 pieces of it once in a blue moon. You see me crying about it? No, because I dont need it, you dont need it, no one needs it. Just stop crying and get along with the idea that it exists because it gives people who are lightyears ahead of me and you a reason to keep logging on and playing every day, let them have their fun and stop being unreasonably upset about it, its absurd.




thats my current bow in rampage. Ive had that since day 4 of the league, solo, self found, self crafted/linked. The link was lucky, but forget the link, the bow was not. That replaced the solo self found bow I had on day 3 of the league, a 5 link high rolled chin sol, which replaced my day 2 bow, a 5 link ivory bow... luck? I dont think so, because I have 2 harbingers like this, infractum, 3 different thickets that could rape endgame, Ive found literally a bow that could destroy endgame for every single day of this league Ive played, and thats just bows. Is this mirror worthy? No, its so, so far from mirror worthy. Does that matter? didnt seem to matter when I obliterated palace dominus with it. People say self found is fine, because its fine, its not luck, this shit is dropping every single day, its not some "omg I found a mirror" pure luck 1 in a million event. The 6 link was extreme luck, 4th time Ive ever managed a 6 link in like 5000+ hours play, but considering I killed dom with my 5 link single target attack who gives a shit, the links are irrelevant to the point Im making, I could have killed him with a 4 link.
@snorkle

So much bullshit in your post that I don't even want to begin to reply to it. I've made some pretty clear points, backed them up with numbers. Now if you wanna delude yourself that what I said isn't true you go ahead, cba arguing anymore. Let's just agree to disagree.
ign: ecogen

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