Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

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Poutsos wrote:

I've been ranting about diminishing returns after your reach some soft cap for quite some time.

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Mannoth wrote:

Add diminishing returns

Is what should happen.

Diminishing Returns, GGG, is the message clear? Regardless of the various other details under debate, on this we agree.

Why not balance about specific weapon and defense for melee?

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HunterKalla wrote:

Why not balance about specific weapon and defense for melee?

Would be really cute if it was that simple.

E.g. melee weapons don't only get used for melee and melee weapons don't only get used for physical.

Still hoping someone from GGG can reply to this. This has been an ongoing problem for a very long while...

Daggers don't really need to be nerfed in my opinion. It's the critical strike mechanic that is the problem. There should be multiple ways to attain high end dps. If you have a high end weapon and invest in a lot of damage nodes, you should be able to obtain high end dps outside of a critical strike build.

While you can certainly do this, you'll probably end up in the 20-30K dps range, whereas playing a critical strike build instead can easily quadruple that damage.

I'm not against crit being strong. It just shouldn't be 4-5 times stronger than someone with good gear who invested in 45 dps nodes.

Agreed, daggers themselves are not too strong, crit is too strong and daggers just have the easiest access to it.

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Ulfgaard wrote:

Daggers don't really need to be nerfed in my opinion. It's the critical strike mechanic that is the problem. There should be multiple ways to attain high end dps. If you have a high end weapon and invest in a lot of damage nodes, you should be able to obtain high end dps outside of a critical strike build.

While you can certainly do this, you'll probably end up in the 20-30K dps range, whereas playing a critical strike build instead can easily quadruple that damage.

I'm not against crit being strong. It just shouldn't be 4-5 times stronger than someone with good gear who invested in 45 dps nodes.

Its quite simple, the more u invest in to one single thing the less increase u will see, so its best to increase all dps sources moderately, and the synergy will do all else.

The highest dps builds exploit
% dmg
% crit
% ias
% auras

most 2h builds exploit just
% dmg
% ias

hence the discrepancy in the overall dps

all dps sources in PoE are best exploited by daggers and wands atm since they can exploit crit the best by far, while the other 3 I mention are pretty much on par amongst weps. Thats all.
Does it mean nerf crit? I don't think so reducing build options is quite bad imo
Does it mean buff other weps? Sure, but how?

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TiltedAxis wrote:

Agreed, daggers themselves are not too strong, crit is too strong and daggers just have the easiest access to it.

Daggers can roll just as high as a 1h sword or 1h axe, only they get near double the crit chance on top of that. So yes, they are too strong. I get that its centered around crit, but still there's no sense in daggers being able to roll the same as a 1h sword and 1h axe. Their damage should be much less to compensate for the high crit roll.

A perfect example of "balance" is if you are discussing Axes vs. Swords. Sure axes get higher damage rolls, but swords are faster. They semi balance themselves out. With Daggers, they have everything. High speed, high damage, high crit, everything. If Daggers had low damage or low speed, we wouldn't even be having this discussion as that is where the balance would come from.

I think the way to deal with op daggers is to introduce seperate crit multipliers for all kind of weapons. A dagger might just get a lower crit multi than a 2 hand weapon or a 1h axe while it's got the higher chance.


e.g:

daggers: 130
1h maces: 160
1h swords: 160
1h axes: 170
2h axes: 230
2h swords: 220
2h maces: 220
2h staves: 190
...

I like how everyone focuses on the obvious imbalance of crit >>>>>>>> non crit in PvM. Then argues doing 2x damage isn't enough. 2x damage is.......2x fucking damage. If you stack crit chance high enough (which is easy as hell as a dagger) you're critical-ling basically every single hit for......2x damage.

Now on to the real issue, because really who gives a crap about PvM. You don't need 400-1000% multipliers in PvP. How is a player expected to live that much damage? Even if they have a shield and are RNGing acrobatics/phase acrobatics and evade. Its asinine and becomes increasingly more asinine when you're a 2h'r who just eats damage for free. A 2h'r in a game where 2h'rs are ass. Where your only defense is your hp pool yet criticals can still 1hit you even with 11k+ hp. Which realistically isn't even easy to come by anymore. Legacy Kaom's users are usually sitting around 7-9k hp now a days and that's in really expensive gear. You'd be better off having 5-6k hp using a 6link and a 1h/shield set up and actually blocking incoming damage. Not to mention how much easier it is to get resist,crit chance/multiplier,attack speed and those 2x 3links are pretty handy. I'm contemplating going bow or 1h/shield myself. Now a days if you're taking RT, you're doing nothing but gimping yourself.

The whole 2h melee concept is flipped on it's head in this game. In Diablo2 2h melee was straight ass too but it wasn't this bad. Dual wielding 2x 1h'ers was stupidly the best Barbarian set up you could do. At least 2h'rs actually out ranged 1h weapon types, hp pools actually equaled a legitimate form of defense in a game where armor was just a suggestion and no one ever payed attention to it. How did it work out that way? Well I dunno...maybe because the game didn't exceed 150% damage on a critical. You received predictable yet high damage and dealt it back. It wasn't 1hit ko's, we knew what the PvP formula was, we had items to properly mitigate stuff that would otherwise be insanely powerful i.e 20 cold mastery Blizzard in Hell mode which could 1 shot you if you didn't stack resistance.

There's just too many things that have been implemented into this game that make it harder then hell to balance. Damage has already been done and its irreversible. Fire,cold,light penetration gems and how they work, critical multiplier, lack of "good" ways to prevent shock,chill and freeze. Letting daggers use the block reduction gem. The way armor works against big damage. CI + Melee damage on full ....just to name a few. I like to PvM as much as the next guy but really that's where its the least unbalanced.