barbarism don't add the max fire resist but decrease it

Then where's the problem? "Same wording = additive stacking" holds true. Taryn's uses different wording from Increased Damage modifiers, and doesn't stack additively with 'em. Increased Effect modifiers use the same wording, and do stack additively. Simple.
The problem is that 'increased effect of auras you cast' and 'increased effect of buffs on you' do not use the same wording. The first appears to affect the aura, the second the target, but they both actually affect the target.
They both use the wording "Increased Effect of X", where X is the subtyping. Again, it's the same as Increased Phys with one-handed/while dual-wielding. They're both Increased Damage, but apply under different circumstances, as indicated by their subtyping.

In this case, both affect the Buff applied by the Aura (the effect of the Aura, if you will).
It's not the subtyping that's the problem, it's the fact that one appears to affect the ability, while the other appears to affect how a target is affected by abilities, which would make them multiplicative.
But they both are referring to the effect on YOU. Your aura has an effect on you. Somebody else's aura has an effect on you. Buff's have effect on you. I'm confused why you think it makes a difference where the buff comes from. Do you think it makes a difference on damage modifiers if they come from gear, or your tree, or an aura, or a shrine? Increased physical damage from all 4 of these sources add together before becoming a multiplier. What you are implying is that Inner Force should read "More effect of buffs on you" (multiplicatve) instead of "increased effect of buffs on you" (additive), which is not how they want it to work.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
.
Last edited by Xendran on Sep 2, 2014, 1:45:01 PM
You're comparing apples to oranges. Surely you can see that Increased Damage Taken and Increased Damage Dealt are quite different, whereas Increased Aura Effects on You and Increased Buff Effects on You are the same thing. Aura effect is a buff. The only difference at all is that one player can give this buff to another player. But a buff is a buff, and an increase to that buff is the same as an increase to that buff whether it comes from an aura effect node or a buff effect node.

If you run an aura with 21% Increased Effect of Auras, you get a 21% Increase of that buff on yourself. if you run an aura with 21% Increased Effects of Buff and no aura effect nodes, you get a 21% increase of that buff on you. It's the same thing as far as the game is concerned and consistently worded with how every other of the same type of increase (buff, elemental damage, melee damage, etc.).

I think using your logic, you could say that if somebody else gives you the Hatred Aura, it should be multiplicative with every other source of Physical Damage you have just because it's coming from somebody other than yourself. The source doesn't matter. All increases get applied the exact same way.

Edit: well this is out of context now since the post I was replying to was erased.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
Last edited by mark1030 on Sep 2, 2014, 2:00:35 PM
"
mark1030 wrote:
But they both are referring to the effect on YOU. Your aura has an effect on you. Somebody else's aura has an effect on you. Buff's have effect on you.
If somebody has increased spell damage and they case a spell on you, and you're shocked so you have increased damage taken, those stack multiplicatively, because one the first effect affects the caster, and the second affects the target. The same way, you would expect someone with boosted aura effects to have a stronger aura, that would then multiplicatively stack with your buff effectiveness.

"
What you are implying is that Inner Force should read "More effect of buffs on you" (multiplicatve) instead of "increased effect of buffs on you" (additive), which is not how they want it to work.
No, the wording on Inner Force is fine. It's the wording of aura effectiveness nodes that is misleading. They should read 'Your auras have x% increased effect on all targets' rather than 'x% increased effect of auras you cast'.

EDIT: One more example: If 'increased spell damage' was instead 'increased damage of spells you cast', would you then suddenly expect it to stack additively instead of multiplicatively with Taryn's Shiver or Shock? Because that's what happening with the aura nodes.
Last edited by MaXimillionZero on Sep 2, 2014, 8:51:23 PM
"
"
mark1030 wrote:
But they both are referring to the effect on YOU. Your aura has an effect on you. Somebody else's aura has an effect on you. Buff's have effect on you.
If somebody has increased spell damage and they case a spell on you, and you're shocked so you have increased damage taken, those stack multiplicatively, because one the first effect affects the caster, and the second affects the target.
No. That's not the reason; this seems to be the source of your confusion. They work the way they do because one of them affects your damage value (technically the damage range) of the skill, and one affects the damage taken. These are different values (though related), and modifiers to one cannot be modifiers to the other - it's not even technically correct to say they stack multiplicatively with each other, as they don't in a strict sense stack with each other at all: one applies to one value, and the other applies at a later time to a second, different value (which was calculated in part but not entirely based on the result of the first value, which is why it's "close enough" to say they stack multiplicatively).

It doesn't matter where these effects are sourced from, only that one is affecting the damage of the skill, and one is affecting damage taken, and that these are inherently not the same value - modifiers to different values fundamentally can't stack additively.

"
EDIT: One more example: If 'increased spell damage' was instead 'increased damage of spells you cast', would you then suddenly expect it to stack additively instead of multiplicatively with Taryn's Shiver or Shock? Because that's what happening with the aura nodes.
This isn't analogous at all - both "increased spell damage" and "increased damage of spells you cast" are clearly affecting the damage of the spell, not damage taken. But a theoretical modifier which said "Damage taken caused by your spells is increased by 10%" would be additive with other increases to damage taken like Shock and Taryn's Shiver, because that's a modifier to damage taken rather than the spell's damage value.

The only thing that matters is what value a modifier applies to - "increased" and "reduced" modifiers to the same value - regardless of how that modifier identifies that value: "increased spell damage", "increased elemental damage" and "increased damage against rare monsters" can all apply the the same value if that value is a value of elemental spell damage on a skill used against a rare monster. Similarly "increased effect of auras you cast" and "increased effect of bufs on you" can apply to the same value if that value is the effect an aura buff that you cast is having on you.

This cannot apply in modifiers to different values, such as a modifier to damage and a modifier to damage taken.
Where the modifiers come from or how they describe/identify the value they're applying to can not and does not matter.

It occurs to me that this might be easier to illustrate with a picture, but I don't have time to create one at the moment.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Sep 3, 2014, 2:20:39 AM
The problem is, that people are lazy with their math.

Normally it would be two different calculations.

(Damage*Increased Damage%)*More Damage%

For your damage output and

(Damag Taken*Increased Damage Taken%)*More Damage Taken%

For the damage the Monster takes.


But the lazy math people fuse these together.

((Damage*Increased Damage%)*More Damage%)*((Damage Taken*Increased Damage Taken%)*More Damage Taken%))

--

Also, the Damage you Deal is not neccessarily = The Damage taken by the mob. There are resistences to consider and armour. So using the Increased Damage Taken% as a multiplier for the Damage Dealt is wrong.
“Demons run when a good man goes to war"

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info